Caste And Reservation

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17 Responses to Caste And Reservation

1. “we ourselves are marking boundaries” exactly!

   if there were no reservations, i wouldnt have got to know about which of my frnds is of which “caste”…. during admissions in colleges, you suddenly start discussing about this

   

   Anuj
   March 25, 2011 at 3:31 pm
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2. rightly said anuj… !!! i dnt think reservation can ever help any society!!

   

   shivansh
   March 25, 2011 at 6:59 pm
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3. the point is has not reached the people it was supposed to! a man living in all luxuries has no right to demand quota!

   

   Jatin
   March 25, 2011 at 7:16 pm
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4. [Caste laws are just the creation and result of Brahmins deep cunning. As Brahmins are descendent of Aryans and Aryans came to India as conquerors Aryans subjugated the aborigines of India and with their power they suppressed the original inhabitants and gave to them the term “shudra”.]
   FYI, even the so called subjugated aborigines are “Aryans”. Mandodari refered to Ravana as Arya. Now who were invaders and who were aborigines?
   [Utilizing their powers and brains to keep these original inhabitants passive they laid out various rules and regulations based on caste, creed and color and made them serve like their slaves. Caste laws made were severe and harsh and the one who violates was subjected to unbearable inhuman punishments and sometimes even to death.]
   FYI, Brahmins suffered more (16 times heavier) punishments than Shudras in some cases. No Arya was ever made “slave”. Shudras were rich enough to employ Brahmins even up to 18th century. Brahmins, on the other hand, lived only on alms.
   [According to these baseless laws the shudras can’t go to temples, they can’t sit with Brahmins, they don’t have the right to accumulate riches, they don’t have the right to study etc. ]
   Have you read the Dhramashastras? Please enlighten me as to which Dharmashastra prohibits Shudras from going to temples, sit with Brahmins, or study. FYI, schools in 18th century had 27% Shudras and 23% Brahmins on an average. Shudras were rich enough to employ Brahmins even upto 18th century. This info is from records of the British themselves.
   [Here I remember the same laws being practiced on Karan , and eklavya in Mahabharata. Where both were denied their rights because of belonging to inferior caste.]
   These are not ideals. Nor do the laws sanction such behavior. They are stories of degraded society and are portrayed as such.
   [All this was done by Brahmins to establish themselves as vital and superior section of society and comparable to god. The power and status that Brahmins enjoy made them blind and unable to see the misery and pain of shudras. Their position forced them to forget the truth that “all creatures are creation of a single god and to make distinctions and practicing caste laws is a sin…. And by doing so they have even lost the right to call themselves humans”.]
   Even the saints who came from so called lower castes have told the same thing: to obey the Shastras.” all creatures are creation of a single god” LOL how Christianized have you become! Indian philosophy never says so. It says, God himself resides in all creatures.

   It is the people who in later times brought in the notion of superiority. The laws have no such feelings. They are rules laid down for gradual progress of everyone. Unlike Europe, where few nobelese got everything and rest got nothing, Caste once ensured that even the “lowest” Chandala got all his daily needs. It degraded in the recent times for 2 reasons: 1. this notion of superiority and inferiority came in, 2. Occupations of lower castes were destroyed by British and Brahmins were Europeanized by selective admission into the newly created education system.

   

   Akshay
   March 27, 2011 at 9:25 am
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   • 
     1. Ravana was born at village Bisrakh Distt. Gautam Budh Nagar, ( Greater Noida) U.P. , his father Brahmin sage known as Vishrava and his wife, the daitya princess Kaikesi. He was born in the Devagana gotra, as his grandfather, sage Pulastya, was the one of the six human sons of Brahma.
     so according to you if mandodari called ravana aryan somewhere then it doesnot prove wrong the fact as he was also brahmin.
     recent researchers have demonstrated beyond a shadow of doubt that the brahmins were not the aborigines of india. at some remote period of antiquity , probably more than 3000 years ago, the aryan progenitors of the present brahmin race descended upon the plains of hindo koosh and other adjoining tracts …. extreme fertility of the soil in indiaits rich productions , proverbial wealth of its people and other innumerable gifts which this favored land enjoys and which have more recently tempted the the cupidity ofd the western nations no doubt attracted the aryans who came to india not as simple emigrants with peaceful intentions of colonization , but as conquerors.
     2.
     (a) a brahmin can do no wrong.
     (b) never shall the king slay a brahmin though he has committed all possible crimes.
     (c) to save the life of brahmin any falsehood may be told. there is no sin in it.
     (d) no one is to take away anything belonging to a brahmin a king though dying of want must not recieve any tax from a bbrahmin nor suffer him to be afflicted with hunger or the whole kingdom will be afflicted wth famine.
     (e)a sudra though emanicipated by his master is not released from state of servitude for being born in a state which is natural to him by whom he be divested of his natural attributes?
     (f) a brahmin may compel a man of the servile class to perform servile duty because such a m,an was created by almighty only for the purposed of serving brahmin.
     all such things been mentioned in manav dharm shastra and other works.
     3. i dont need dharmshastra to talk about it i have seen with my very own eyes people suffering just because of belonging to inferior class….they are denied access to schools even till today.
     [Shudras were rich enough to employ Brahmins even upto 18th century]
     i dont know which facts you are talking about …. but according to your statement u said they were rich enough to employ brahmins even upto 18 century… i would say even today i have dalit who can employ thousands of brahmins … our very own honourabe chief minister of u.p (my state:))mayawati is a dalit on the other hand i came across the news where a girl’s limbs were chopped off by superior caste lads because she refused to have sex with them.
     you need to read history books where you will find the illtreatment practised on with shudras.
     4. all creatures are creation of single god and god resides in all beings discussing this point is ablsolutely baseless…. and by calling this thought as chritianized you yourself has marked distinction. the thing which i am opposing here .
     5. “our system of government in india is not calculated to raise the character of those subject to itnor is the present system of education one to do more than over educate the few , leaving the mass of the people as ignorant as ever and still more at the mercy of few learned in fact it is an extension of the demoralizing brahmin-ridden policy which perhaps has more retarded the progress of civilization and improvement in india generally than anything else”
     col.G.J HALLY – on fisheries

     

     shivansh
     March 27, 2011 at 9:23 pm
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5. Also, regarding Aryan Invasion Theory, please read Sh. Srikant Talegiri’s books (2nd and 3rd book esply) on the same. It is a scholarly work and poves OIT instead of AIT. Also, in major academic circles too AIT has been rubbished but due to certain political and other motivations, AIT is being taught. Even the linguistic evidence of AIT in a way is circular in logic.
   Also, read Koenraad Elst’s article on the same http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2009/01/great-book-about-great-book.html

   Finally it is a request to please do homework before posting any article on forums which are widely read/publicized unless (i hope not) this is a propaganda forum, in which case I should not comment any further.
   Sorry, for a rude remark but it seems apt when Indians themselves have forgotten their “self” identity and are trying to reinvent themselves on the basis of what the “other” thinks (the self and other are from the sociological concept).

   

   Akshay
   March 27, 2011 at 4:00 pm
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   • http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rajiv-malhotra/how-europeans-misappropri_b_837376.html

     

     Akshay
     March 27, 2011 at 4:10 pm
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6. @Akshay: Your points are absolutely correct and I appreciate that someone has put forth the truth. but sir then again, you and i know these, and so do our friends. but the very fact that you (not you in specific!) recognise aperson by his caste and not by his achievements or abilities is not a right thing.

   

   Jatin
   March 27, 2011 at 4:20 pm
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7. @jatin, it is not what i m saying. IF you read what I have mentioned in my comment is that there was a sense of superiority among certain people, which was due to manifold reasons, some of them being the Britishers (c.f. Books by Sh. Dharampal, who takes his data from british archives). Also, the AIT that is stated has been disproved and instead, OIT is considered to be more reasonable (c.f. Sh. Rajiv Dixit and Sh. Srikant Talagiri).
   Any such discrimination on birth is completely inappropriate and should not be practiced. I completely support on this front. But, if somebody puts forth some arbit theory, knowingly or unknowingly creating an impression of a “holy” sanction to such discrimination and hence bringing forth the idea of ours being a demonic culture, then i oppose that and that alone.

   

   Akshay
   March 27, 2011 at 7:28 pm
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8. its not happening near you does not means things dont exit for experiencing this caste evil you are required to go in the interiors rather than staying in the metro city.
   read there work and than you will know that how much they have suffered and for them getting education was like pluckin stars from the sky… jst saying that they are nowwhere denied education in any shastra is just not enough

   

   shivansh
   March 27, 2011 at 9:28 pm
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9. And yaa one more thing you can criticize articles but
   [Finally it is a request to please do homework before posting any article on forums which are widely read/publicized unless (i hope not) this is a propaganda forum, in which case I should not comment any further] .
   But commenting in this way is not at all exceptable so mind it from the next time.

   

   shivansh
   March 27, 2011 at 9:38 pm
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   • i would like to clarify here that that is not the case, and shivansh, this is your article and if you yourself think this is giving the image of a propaganda forum, i request you to simply tell me to remove it!

     

     anwesha
     March 28, 2011 at 12:22 am
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10. anwesha you have misunderstood it… what i have written above is what i was quoting it from akshay’s statement…. he has called it propaganda forum

    

    shivansh
    March 28, 2011 at 7:20 pm
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    • relax!

      On a lighter note, have a look at http://indianfusion.aglasem.com/?attachment_id=5372

      

      admin
      March 29, 2011 at 2:50 pm
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11. 1.
    “recent researchers have demonstrated beyond a shadow of doubt that the brahmins were not the aborigines.” Un-referenced statements like these have no value in any analysis. Please have a look at http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/genetics-aryan-debate.html which essentially says that there was no significant influx of foreign genes in Indian subcontinent after 50000 BC, that there is no significant difference between the tribal and caste populations. If you are not satisfied with the article itself, please take pains to go through the individual papers it mentions. And to complete the picture about the Aryan Invasion debate, please read this book: http://www.bharatvani.org/books/rig . If you have any arguments (logical arguments, not opinions) _on top of_ those presented in this book, we can discuss further. Till then, enough said on this.

    2.
    Your point number 2 is A ditto copy-paste from a book whose very title is “Slavery”! How can you expect to find a big picture in it! I would suggest you to read the dharmashastras in original, before forming opinions.

    It is true that the dharmashastras do not recommend death penalty to the Brahmanas, but in place of that, they recommend marking on the forehead with hot iron and banishment from the country, (even for trivial crimes like drinking wine, for which Shudras go unpunished). Indeed, such a Brahmin would be left to vultures only, since he has no other sources of livelihood. They also recommend 16 times more punishment to Brahmanas than Shudras in cases of theft etc. And an atatayin is to be killed immediately, even if he be the most learned Brahmana.
    Moreover, Manusmriti itself declares in the beginning, that a Brahmana who does not learn the Veda, does not teach, etc, should be treated like a shudra and should be made to pay taxes. So everything that is told in favour of Brahmanas is true only for selfless Brahmanas with good character and learning. For that matter, for as trivial a crime as not saluting your parents and teacher, the Brahmana becomes a Shudra!

    3.
    “i dont know which facts you are talking about…” What history you read in school is itself given to you by the british. But there is another unpublished history, _also written by Britishers_: When the east india company first made assessments of India’s systems, they sent reports and statistics to the king, which are still preserved in British archives. An analysis of these statistics was carried out around 1980 by Dharampal, and shows a picture quite different from what is taught in our history books. Relevant aspects of the 18th century Indian society are given at the end of this post. The statement about Shudras being rich enough to employ brahmins is relevant. It reflects the 18th century India, which you perhaps (falsely) beliveve to be a period when all shudras were serving in the houses of Brahmanas like slaves. No doubt a lot of Dalits have come to important positions today, and that is good.

    I do believe that you have experienced for yourself the plight of Dalits the hands of Brahmins (and for that matter, Dalits have even suffered more at the hands of other “Shudra” castes than Brahmins). But all that you say in points 3, 4, 5 is about the post British period, when the caste system indeed, had degenerated. There are three reasons for this: 1. Economic occupations of the Shudras were systematically destroyed by British, 2. Brahmins were selectively admitted to the newly created education system, 3. The notions of superiority and inferiority were introduced and overprojected. But nowhere is such behaviour sanctioned by the Shastras. It is wrong, and wrong on the part of the people alone, not on the part of the shastras.

    4.
    The argument about God was just to show how much British way of thinking has been ingrained in our minds. It is indeed irrelevant to the arguments here.

    In conclusion, today, all our systems are different and hence the Caste system as propounded by the shastras is neither feasible nor desirable. My point is, let’s not blame our own scriptures for the wrongs done by people in recent times, and that too based on incorrect beliefs.

    —x—

    Education scene in pre-British India:

    There were schools in every single village, and they admitted everyone, (including Muslim women!). In fact, 27% of the students were Shudras, and only 23% Brahmin (on the average). In fact only 7-48% teachers were Brahmins, rest were from otehr castes. Dharampal also gives the list of subjects that were taught in these schools in various grades. (all this of course, from the British archives.) For details, please read his book “The Beautiful Tree”.

    

    Jaideep
    March 29, 2011 at 2:00 pm
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12. read dalit work where they have shown their feelings , and what they suffered and because of whom untill and unless you will read jotirao phuleyou wont understand.

    

    shivansh
    March 29, 2011 at 7:08 pm
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    • I have read the book “Slavery” by Mahatma Phule. He makes a very good observation that the British government never focussed on education of the masses, but only on high class education, in which there was Brahmin monopoly. Indeed, this was the case, because it was a strategy: By breaking the traditional education system and selectively educating the Brahmins with high class education, the british killed 3 birds in a single shot – 1. turned the people who were originally guides of society to “Indian in blood but European in thought”, 2. created a divide in the society along the caste faultline, 3. Killed the civilizational thought and conciousness, which is so vital to the sustenance of any civilization.

      As a result of this policy, in 1873, Jyotiba perceived Brahmins who were no longer the Shastric ideals. They had become selfish, had taken to opressing others, and had established hegemony over the system, which the Mahatma very correctly pointed out and opposed. In those days, it was the need of the hour to uplift the masses and break this hegemony by whatever means possible.

      Today, thanks to advancements in archaeology and genetics we know better. Unless the roots of the problem are understood, no solution can be found. If we keep blaming the Shastras, it will only create more enemity and divide. If something good is to be really done, this blame game should be stopped, and real solutions should be pondered over.

      I shall say no more.

      

      Jaideep
      March 29, 2011 at 8:29 pm
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